Has the Church Replaced Israel?

no, the Church has not replaced Israel. I don't have time to give an explanation at the moment. I will come back at a later time to reply further, and others are welcome to take it.

GodzPrincess
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I've heard arguments from both sides of the spectrum, and I know that the arguments against Replacement Theology were much more convincing than those that supported it.
God has not turned His back on Israel, and He won't. Israel will recognize Him as Messiah during the Great Tribulation.
Unfortunately, I don't remember all of the points either way. Perhaps someone more knowledgable can clarify.

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

The problem with 2nd Peter 2:9 is that in the first verse, of the first chapter it says, 'To all those who are in dispersion.'

Well, who wasin dispersion at that time? The Jews.

Furthermore, in verse 12 of chapter 2 it says, 'watch how you conduct yourselves among the Gentiles.'

If the author is already talking to Gentiles, then it makes no sense for him to say that.

Lastly, it makes no hermeneutical sense that these terms that, throughout the Old Testament and New refer to Israel, would all of a sudden without explanation refer to the Gentiles.

The problem with Romans 11:12 is that if you take it to mean the Jews rejection by God, then that is in complete contrast with verse 1 of the same chapter, 'Has God rejected His people? Certainly not!' Whoever pushes for Replacement Theology in this scripture (and its a popular one for that) has a lot of explanation as to how it makes sense.

That makes good sense, Anthony. Doesn't the Romans passage also talk about God grafting Israel back into the olive tree? It talks about the Gentiles having been grafted, then it talks about Israel being grafetd back in. Seems pretty clear-cut to me that God hasn't turned permanently His back on Israel.

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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Right, it says, 'For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, how much more will their being grafted back in me?' It is clear in this passage, and many others that the blindness of Israel will be removed in the future (during the tribulation).

The key to understand these passages is to view it first not as Gods rejection of the Jews, but as the Jews rejection of the Gospel. God has not in any way turned His back on His people, for it says, 'All day long I stretch out my hand to a rebellious and contrary people.'

The blindness that is on Israel was put on them because of their disobedience way before the Messiah walked the earth. It was because of this blindness that they would not see clearly to recognize the Messiah, and thus crucify Him.

But because God is gracious, and promised His people they would 'never cease to be a nation' he has reserved for Him a remnant that was not blind and can know who the Messiah is.

It is late, 1 am here for me, so I wont get into it now, but I absolutely don't agree with the replacement theology, that the Gentile/Christian church has replaced the Jewish as Israel. I will find my scriptures and show that while God may have allowed Israel to cease being a nation for quite a long time, obviously Christianity was shaken up when Israel became a nation again in 1947/1948, and shook up the Replacement Theology then. Its a shame there are still christians who still hold this theology, which doesn't make sense to me. I'll find scriptures, but one thing I thought was interesting is in James 1:1 "To the twelve tribes who are scattered (dispersed) abroad." Looking up the concordance meaning of this, it shows the meaning of diaspora as "dispersion; converted Israelites resident in Gentile countries". Notice it says twelve tribes....all twelve. Scattered, dispersed, among the nations around the world. It is generally agreed --to the best of my knowledge-- that one tribe became the Tribe of Judah, that we attribute as Jewish, the other 10 tribes became "lost".... Paul is talking about all 12 tribes. Together. I will try to find scriptures to show why I believe we who call ourselves Christians are Israelites, too!! Why don't we consider ourselves Israelites? Do you consider yourself Israelites? Why or why not? Good discussion question!

Blessings,
Tonya

Great insights, Tonya. I never even thought about that in the James passage.

As far as us being Israelites, from what I understand, we are Israelites in that we are spiritual Israel. We are the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

Rom. 9:6-8 But it is not that the Word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac all your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as seed

Remember, Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and we are his brothers and sisters, joint heirs with Him, so we are also children of Israel, and inherit the promise, through Christ. That's why we are spiritual descendants of Abraham, because Christ descended from him, and we are His spiritual brothers and sisters.

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

I think it's important to distinguish the promises given to national Israel, and those given to whomever believes in God.

I don't believe we are spiritual Israel, or that we have inherited the promises of national Israel. We simply believe in God with the same faith that Abraham believed.

Gods promises to national Israel are solely to national Israel and the same applies to the Jews and to the Gentiles.

I have to ask! :)
I am not sure I really understand what that means, but have heard that a number of times. What is the distinction? What is the difference between "real" Israel or being a genuine Israelite, versus "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Israelite"? Do we just receive "spiritual" blessings, or are they real? I have to ask you to explain more, to get you to go beyond what we as American christians have been taught by our popular teachers, and learn to question things more, and seek what the scriptures really say.

I like to think of explaining the analogy that we are truly Israelites in the same sense of foreigners who have been coming to America since her founding. (Any history buff may help me out here!) At some point we established rules that any foreigner who comes to America wanting to become a citizen has to wait 14 years (right?), and must be willing to abide by the rules and accept whatever consequences for breaking laws, etc. But once the foreigner has lived here the required time and has fulfilled other requirements, they become an American citizen....real, bone-fide(sp?), genuine American, not "spiritual" or partial or anything...they are truly accepted as an American. **(Interesting to note that there is some question as to whether Obama, our current President, truly is qualified to serve as President, since they cannot verify his birth certificate; he has a paper saying he was born, but not an actual certificate? Because our Constitution requires the President to be a natural born American, not just a citizen. Right?)

Likewise, as you will find God established this principle in the Old Testament or Old Covenant; if a foreigner/stranger/alien (depending on your translation) wanted to participate the feasts they had to be circumcised. And you will find that God established the same rules as far as the commandments for natural born Israelites and aliens/strangers/gentiles in the Old Covenant. He saw and treated the aliens the same as the natural born citizens.

Examples: Exodus 12 talks about the Passover. You see in verse 19, it says, "For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an ALIEN or native born."

Verse 48: "An ALIEN living among you who wants to celebrate the Lord's Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised, then he may take part LIKE ONE BORN IN THE LAND. No uncircumcised male may eat of it. THE SAME LAW APPLIES TO THE NATIVE BORN AND TO THE ALIEN LIVING AMONG YOU."

Exodus 20: 8-11 regarding the Sabbath day..."the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the ALIEN WITHIN YOUR GATES....
Leviticus 17 thru 20 has a lot:
Lev. 17:8 "Say to them, 'Any Israelite or any ALIEN living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the entrance..."
v. 10 "Any Israelite or any ALIEN living among them who eats any blood...None of you may eat blood, nor may an ALIEN living among you eat blood
v. 15 "Anyone, whether native born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals..."
Lev. 18: 26 (in reference to sexual sins), "But you must keep My decrees and My laws. The native born and the aliens among you must not do any of these things..."
Lev. 24: 22 "You are to have the same law for the ALIEN and the native born. I am the Lord your God."

I can go on, but my point is that God gave permission for aliens (gentiles) to participate in the feasts and commanded the same respect for His laws and expected obedience regardless. So God treated the native born Israelites and the aliens the same. So the Lord has established this principle. Am I saying we gentile/alien believers must obey Old Covenant commandments? That is not my point here.

I believe God had a purpose as you see in the verses below:

Exodus 18:3, "Moses said, 'I have become an alien in a foreign land'".
Genesis 23:3-4 "Then Abraham arose from beside his dead wife and spoke to the Hittites. He said, 'I am an alien and a stranger among you..."

Exodus 22:21 "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."
Exodus 23:9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt."
Leviticus 19:33-34 "When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living among you must be treated as one of your native born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

The Lord had His children, the nation Israel, wander from place to place, and learn what it was like to be an alien, and the above verses explains that He taught them to be sympathetic and compassionate thru their personal experience. (That is just one part of it).

Genesis 35: 11 "And God said to him (Jacob, who became Israel), 'I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation {Israel} and a community of nations {gentile nations} will come from you...'"
As I quoted from James 1:1 "to the twelve tribes (of Israel) scattered among the nations." One tribe, the tribe of Judah, is considered Israel, the Jewish. The other ten tribes became lost among the world. Why did God allow that? What was His purpose?

How do we know we aren't one of the ten tribes? Is it God's intention to establish that primarily by literal blood descent? How can we prove that or disprove it? We can't! And I believe that was God's plan all along. "God so loved the WORLD that He gave His one and only Son..." (John 3:16)

It's almost midnight and need to clean up kitchen and get shower and get to bed. So will stop now. And try to do more later.

Blessings,
Tonya

Read Ephesians 2:11 thru Ephesians 3:13. I'll highlight some parts:

"Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth (in the flesh, kjv), and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision"...that you were separate from Christ, being aliens, excluded from citizenship in Israel and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away, have been brought near through the blood of Christ...
(v.19) "...you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens (kjv, meaning "native") with God's people and members of God's household."

Ephesians 3:4 "In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel, the Gentiles (aliens) are fellow heirs, together with Israel, members together of one body and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus...."

That doesn't sound like we are "spiritual Israel" with all due respect. We are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens, fellow natives. We've become an Israelite, same as a foreigner in America becomes an American. No different. God calls us His child. He makes no distinction between gentiles/aliens/foreigners/strangers and His native born Israel. Thanks be to God, through Jesus, He made it possible for us gentiles to become His, too!

God first established His chosen people Israel...they continuously rebelled against Him. He "divorced" His people (which we need to remember Israel had already split into two kingdoms, and God was displeased with both kingdoms!) for a time (Jeremiah 3:6-10, v.8). To fulfill what He planned all along:

Romans 11: 11 "...Did they (God's people, Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Romans 11:25-26 "...Israel has experienced a hardening/blindness in part until the full number of Gentiles has come in. And so ALL ISRAEL will be saved." (Both the one tribe of Judah/house of Judah that we know as the Jewish, and the lost ten tribes that goes by the house of Israel, Ephraim, Israel...)

***[Jeremeiah 31: 31-34 "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah...This is the covenant I will make with thte house of Israel after that time...I will put my Law in their minds and write it on thir hearts. I will be their God and they will be My people..." which is repeated in Hebrews 8: 8-13)]***

cont. Romans 11: 28-32 "...Just as you were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their (Israel...we now consider Jewish) disobedience, so they too now have become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound ALL men over to disobedience (Jewish and Gentile) so that He may have mercy on them all."

Truly, God can cause all things to work together for good, huh!!

Blessings,
Tonya

Acts 10 is the chapter where God gives Peter the vision that had unclean animals and was told to kill and eat, and Peter said, NO. And in asking the meaning of the vision, contrary to popular opinion where many have used this to support their belief that God okayed us eating unclean foods, God explains the vision in Acts 10:28-29: "He (Peter) said to them, 'You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean..." Then, in Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God is no respecter of persons, but accepts every nation that fears Him and works righteousness." Then the Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit, astonishing the circumcised believers (Jewish) (Acts 10:44-48).

"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are Mine!...I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...You are precious and honored in my eyes, and I love you...do not be afraid, for I am with you." (Is.43:4-5)

Ephesians 2:22 gives you the answer to what we are 'heirs' and 'fellow citizens' of: 'for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

National Israel certainly isn't the 'dwelling place of God in the Spirit'. It is talking about Heaven. We are all 'heirs' and 'fellow citizens' because of our salvation in Christ.

Ephesians 3:6 says, "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, together with Israel, in the promise of Christ Jesus."

What is the promise of Christ Jesus? Salvation.

Galations 3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

It is clear with the 'there is neither male nor female' that Paul is talking in regards to salvation. We all receive salvation the same way. This does nothing to affect the relationship between national Israel and Gentiles.

Well, we certainly aren't physical descendants of Abraham. We are not Israelites by physical birth. I guess that's what I was getting at:

1 Cor. 1-4Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ

Christ is the same spiritual rock that both Jews and Gentiles drink from.

Gal. 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The only reason why we are even labeled as descendants of Abraham is because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ -- the Seed of Abraham as described in the book of Galatians. If not for Him, then we could never have been "grafted in."

Mark 3:35For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and My mother

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Genesis 17: 5 "No longer will you be called Abram ("exalted father"); your name will be Abraham ("FATHER OF MANY"), for I have made you a FATHER OF MANY NATIONS."

Romans 4: 9b-12 "...We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised or before? It was not after, but before! (I know we know this, but the following is what I want to emphasize:) And he received the sign of the circumcision, a seal of righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then he is the FATHER OF ALL who believe, but have NOT been circumcized (GENTILES) in order than righteousness might be credited to them. And he is ALSO THE FATHER OF THE CIRCUMCISED (JEWISH), BUT WHO ALSO WALK IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THE FAITH THAT OUR FATHER ABRAHAM HAD BEFORE HE WAS CIRCUMCISED".

Romans 4:16-17 "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed TO ALL ABRAHAM'S OFFSPRING- NOT ONLY TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE LAW (JEWISH) BUT ALSO TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM. HE IS THE FATHER OF US ALL. AS IT IS WRITTEN, 'I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS.' HE IS OUR FATHER IN THE SIGHT OF GOD..."

So with all due respect, I don't agree that we can't be physical descendants of Abraham. These scriptures indicate we are! In God's eyes, Abraham is literally our father--He is the father of many nations. Those who are circumcised and believe in faith like Abraham, and those who are not circumcised, us Gentiles.

Blessings,
Tonya

"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are Mine!...I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...You are precious and honored in my eyes, and I love you...do not be afraid, for I am with you." (Is.43:4-5)

I respect your comments.

Romans 2:26 confirms, “if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?"

Here we see believing Gentiles being regarded as true Jews.

Romans 2:29 adds why: “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

Those that are born of the Spirit are grafted into God’s spiritual Israel.

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

You said:

"Here we see believing Gentiles being regarded as true Jews.

Romans 2:29 adds why: “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit.”

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that Gentiles are being regarded as true Jews, which is exactly what I was trying to say thru the scriptures I showed you. That in God's eyes it is an issue of the heart whether we will have faith in Him, and thru Jesus we Gentiles have received that wonderful possibility to join in with the Jewish believers who truly believe and are accepting Jesus as the Messiah-- to become citizens of Israel; an Israelite. Jewish (or should I say Messianic Jewish, believing in Yeshua) and Gentile, both children of God, both the sheep that know His voice (John 10:16)..."I have other sheep (gentiles) that are not of this sheep pen (Israel/Jewish). I must bring them also. They too will listen to My voice, and there shall be one flock, and one Shepherd."

I consider myself an Israelite, real, not spiritual.

Not sure what you mean by "spiritual Israel". What does that mean? You never really answered that.

I don't want to come across as argumentative. I do like to challenge and question stuff and try to understand people's perspectives and what they believe and why. I don't like to argue. I do realize that it is the Holy Spirit's job to open our eyes to see what God wants us to see and God wants us to come together in unity and peace, not trying to argue and persuade each other, but trusting in the work of the Holy Spirit to bring about God's purposes. So, best for us to just pray for one another and somehow we will be able to understand each other and not be confused or misunderstanding each other...satan is so good at that! So I just ask God to help us join together in spirit of unity and bond of peace and we will be in agreement according to His truth.

Blessings,
Tonya

"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are Mine!...I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...You are precious and honored in my eyes, and I love you...do not be afraid, for I am with you." (Is.43:4-5)

Think nothing of it!! I don't think you're being argumentative at all. I actually think that we are on the same wavelength -- maybe I'm just not making myself clear.

In Rom. 2:29, Paul describes who and what real circumcision (or Jewishness) relates to. Is it ethnic Jews or spiritual Jews -- the physically circumcised or spiritually circumcised? This was an obvious issue in the early church with the move from the old to the new arrangement.

A lot of ethnic (natural) Jews based their salvation and the favour of God upon their physical birthright and obedience to a set of religious rules, regulations and ordinances. One of the most prominent signs of esteem the Jew advanced was physical circumcision. Paul here – a Hebrew of the Hebrews – blows this fallacy apart and explains what a true Jew is today under the new covenant.

Paul is demonstrating how true blood-bought Christians (whether natural Jew or natural Gentile) are the real Israel of God – the possessors of the spiritual title of “Jew” and “circumcision.”

A natural Jew does not become a true Jew until they have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Scripture describes a spiritual title of "Jew" which is only realised through spiritual circumcision of the heart. Not every Jew experiences this. There is therefore two types of Jew, a real one and a natural one.

Now, we as Gentiles are not natural Jews -- i.e. Jews by ethnicity, neither are we in the physical lineage of Abraham. I don't know about you, but no one in my family line comes from any of the 12 tribes of Israel -- at least, not that I know of. Even so, we have experienced a spiritual circumcision, and thus, we are what Paul refers to as Spiritual Jews.

In Philippians 3:3, speaking of the church, Paul explains: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit (pneuma), and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Someone else explained it to me in this way:

This simple verse reveals how the blood-bought believer today is the true, divinely accepted, circumcision of God. He is circumcised not in a literal physical sense as was the imperfect pre-Calvary shadow and type, but in a spiritual sense as is the more perfect New Testament realization. It is he alone who is able and qualified to “worship God in Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus.” It is he, and not the Christ-rejecting Jew, that has absolutely “no confidence in the flesh.” The Church is hence the spiritual Israel today and the Christian is a spiritual Jew.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Anyhow, that I suppose is the best explanation that I can give.

This has been a very interesting discussion, and I have really enjoyed it. :)

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

While I am obviously not a practicing muslim, I will say this.

Are you aware that the Quran does speak about the nation of israel being the spiritual capital of the jews and how they will dwell in it?

Israel is spoken of in the biblical texts as a sort of tangible spiritual capital of GOD. John Hagee has a book entitled "In the defense of Israel" which goes into detail of not just why we should stick up for israel but also the importance of it as a spiritual capital for both Christians and Jews alike.

I've been "Jewin' Out" a bit lately!

http://www.discoveringthejewishjesus.com/

When we still had tv, I would watch him whenever I could. I liked to watch it. I wish I could still watch it, sigh. Too bad he doesn't have articles to read online. I'm real big on that. Oh well.
We used to be part of a messianic congregration, but it closed down. But I felt like we were stuck between Christians and Messianics, feeling torn between both sides, with their teachings that sometimes contradicted each other, and both pointing fingers at the other saying "they're wrong". Much like when I was younger, feeling stuck between my brother and sister fighting each other, physically! Ughh. Somehow, someway, the Lord will bring His children together as one.

"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are Mine!...I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...You are precious and honored in my eyes, and I love you...do not be afraid, for I am with you." (Is.43:4-5)

I believe you quoted a verse which actually shows that we're spiritual offspring. Sure we CAN be physical descendants of Abraham, but this Scripture here is pretty clear that believers are descendants of him through faith, not necessarily through heritage (law, jewishness). So that means
When we come to faith we become part of the blessed offspring of Abraham, even though we're no "real" offspring. If we were physical offspring we would already be blessed and that would create a strange situation, because then why isn't the total of his offspring blessed?
So this distinction between physical and spiritual is important. If we are spiritual descendants that doesn't mean we're less of a descendant than if we would be physical descendants. It just matters that through faith we receive the blessings God promised in the Abrahamic covenant, and we should be happy that this doesn't only apply to his physical offspring (the Jews), but that he becomes our spiritual father when we come to faith. This doesn't mean that in God's eyes we become physical descendants all of a sudden. That doesn't make sense. We become descendants and so we're blessed, that's all that matters

The word Jew, simply means God's people and Israel is not a country, but where God's people dwell.

My first question is, did Jesus come to start a new religion called Christianity? The reason I ask this is it would be a lot easier for one to accept it if Jesus would have said somewhere, "become a Christian." The other line of thinking is that Jesus came so that all could be grafted into to promise according to Hebrews. That promise was given to the Jews. So were did this concept fo Christianity come in? The only thing I have found is that Romans and Greeks were mocking believers calling them Christians and the first Christian Pope was Peter, because of what was said to Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church." However if what Jesus was talking about was "upon this rock of Love I will build my church."

Scripture tells us that confusin and division is not of God. Today there are more than 20,000 some sects of Christianity (which to me sounds fairly divided) and because of that division many words mean different things, such as salvation. To be saved in the OT one had to know God's plan and then walk in it where in the NT salvation seems to be just accepting a few beliefs.

Couple other differences in history. Christians have felt justified by taking lands and being over others. As a Jew, how we get into good relationship with God is by being a servant.
God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

It is interestion that Israel was praying for the Messiah to come and solve the problems and today Christians for the most part are expecting the return of the Messiah to fix the problems. What is humorious is that Christinity teaches the Jews were in error for expecting Jesus to solve the problems but then turn around today and expect Jesus to solove the problems on earth.

We also need to accept that Jesus was Jew and if we accept His blood then we are also Jews by adoption and if that is true the we cannot replace Israel, but are a part of Israel.

Sarah

QuoteMy first question is, did Jesus come to start a new religion called Christianity? The reason I ask this is it would be a lot easier for one to accept it if Jesus would have said somewhere, "become a Christian." The other line of thinking is that Jesus came so that all could be grafted into to promise according to Hebrews. That promise was given to the Jews. So were did this concept fo Christianity come in? The only thing I have found is that Romans and Greeks were mocking believers calling them Christians and the first Christian Pope was Peter, because of what was said to Peter, "upon this rock I will build my church." However if what Jesus was talking about was "upon this rock of Love I will build my church."/Quote

No, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and practiced ancient Judaism during His time on earth. He fulfilled the prophecies for the first coming of the Messiah (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22). Jesus is completely and wholly (spelling?) Jewish, but thanks be to God that God loved the WORLD that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish.

This is the whole purpose of the Jewish people. It is the reason they have been chosen: to bring about the Messiah for the salvation of the world. It is the whole purpose of the location of Israel: In the center of the ancient trade routes connecting the East and West, the middle of the world, i.e. 'the center of the universe'. So that all nations may know that the God of Israel is the Lord.

Quote
Scripture tells us that confusin and division is not of God. Today there are more than 20,000 some sects of Christianity (which to me sounds fairly divided) and because of that division many words mean different things, such as salvation./Quote

Have you heard of the saying, 'Where there are 2 Jews, there are 3 opinions?' In every religion there are many different sects, and different interpretation of scripture. As far as obtaining salvation, there are not 20,000 different views. There is only John 3:16

Quote:
Couple other differences in history. Christians have felt justified by taking lands and being over others. As a Jew, how we get into good relationship with God is by being a servant.
God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return? /Quote

How do you get in a relationship with God if you have not resolved the issue of sin? Ezekiel 18 states that if you repent of your sins and return to my statutes you will obtain salvation. The problem is 'returning to My statutes' includes blood offering for sin. Which, as a non-believing Jew you have no way of returning to Gods statutes of a sin offering obviously. The Messiah being our suffering servant and making atonement for our sins is described in Isaiah 53 and in Psalms 22.

Don't let the wrongdoings of others keep you from looking at the actual scriptures. In a country run by the church, it is inevitable that leaders will use the church to further their own selfish desires. This is nothing exclusive with Christianity. Also, whatever the evil thing that someone may have done 'in the name of Jesus', doesn't answer the question is Jesus the Messiah.

It's midnight and that's all my brain will do now.

I have to try and answer this........starting with the basics.

I am going to try and answer this both as a Jew and one in Christ.

Starters; the word Jew, simply means "God's people." The word Israel simply means "where God has led His people to dwell."

How does one become God's people? Answer: Seek after God and put Him first in our lives OT & NT.

Granted one became a Jew by birth such as I did, because my mother was born a Jew. That is the nationality. Jesus was a Jew. The bride of Christ is a woman. Jesus to stay in line with being a Jew, must have a bride that is a Jew so her offspringe are also of God.

You mentioned about a Spirit Jew. It is all a condition of the heart to be a Jew and seek after God. How we now get to God is through Jesus. If Jesus is a Jew and He is in you, then you are also a Jew. To us the body He is not only the groom but a brother.

The mission was in Pauls time and still today first to the Jew and then the gentile. To put that in modern terms, first to the church and the Jew by birth and then everyone else. The reason it is that way, is to bring people to maturity so each can stand together with locked arms against the enemy so we can destroy the works of the enemy. God gave us a government to do so which is why with Jesus the government is on His shoulders, which is some are called to be apostles, some profits, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers for the edification of the body so it can grow to maturity. That really is key, It is not just leading people to Christ (Jesus) but leading people to Christ (Jesus the head and we are the body of Christ) so each can be fit jointly together (so there are no gaps).

Some see the body of Christ as "Spiritual Israel" and yes we are grafted into the promise which is talked about in Hebrews. That promise is for God's people. They are both blessings and curses. Many talk about the blessings of God, but that is for God's people, but with that is also the curses and if you or anyone looks, there are more curses than blessings, but if you accept one the other also comes with it.

You are correct in understanding that in the scriptures the are talking about Spirit filled people and being Spirit filled people they are Jews. I don't want to get this confused with another scripture that it says there are no longer Jews or gentiles, because what that is dealing with is there is only one way to God which is through Jesus.

Where Christianity came from was really a slur against believers as Romans and Greeks mocked people that were in Christ. The other reason Christianity got a foothold was that it was believed that Jews killed Jesus and if one looks at scripture it was not Jews but Romans.

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

Actually, what this is doing is laying out a chronological framework. Salvation came to the Jews first, then after Christ dies, it was also offered to the Gentiles. This is talking about literal Jews and Gentiles, and not the church.

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

" This is talking about literal Jews and Gentiles,"

What that is saying is literally God's people first and then to those are not God's people.

Revial is about to take place first to those of God and secondly to those not of God;

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

Hi, Sarah :)

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that interpretation. Could you perhaps explain how it is that you came to that conclusion?

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Hi

OK I will give it my best. The word Jew defined, literally means, "God's People." There are on earth either God's people or not God's people.

Hebrews tells us that we are grafted into the promise. In scripture, no where does it say that Jesus came to start a new religion of any kind. He just said, He was the way the truth and the light and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

Jesus was a Jew and if you have Jesus blood, then your a Jew also, by adoption. There is a lot deeper than that but it has to do with the bride of Christ. As a Jew only women carry the heritage. It is interesting that it is the only people on earth where the woman has significance. In fact it is the only ones on earth where the woman carries the blood line. Our offspring or those we bring to Jesus are God's people. Family is really a condition of the heart and we either see ourselves as family or see ourselves other than family and that is a contion of the heart also. If we don't see each other as family then we exclude each other from the family. It is our choice how we see things.

Words have changed meaning over the years. For example today it is common to think of a church as building but in scripture the only reference to the church was the body of Christ. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing from the word? That's another one. Most think its the Bible but there were no Bibles for another 1500 years or so when that was written. It was talking about Jesus. Faith cometh by hearing the voice of Jesus.

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

Thanks for the explanation, Sarah.

I thought that a Jew was a descendant of the tribe of Judah?

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Actually there were twelve tribes, Reuben "son", Simeon "hears", Levi "joined", Judah "praise",Dan "judge", Naphtali "wrestling", Gad "troop", Asher "happy",Issachar "for hire", Zebulun "dwelling", Joseph "added" "double portion and Benjamin "comfort", but not because it was designed that way, but because they couldn't get along. This part is just my opinion, but the only way I believe people can get along is through God's Spirit, which really is the very heart of God.

I am a Jew by birth, but like Paul now I really am a Jew, not because my mother was a Jew, but because of the blood of Jesus as we are all of His blood line, which is from the tribe of Judah. So in that case we are all in the tribe of Judah as He is the lion of Judah. By the way Judah was some of the worst of the worst.

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

What have Gentiles been grafted into? Faith of Abraham. This does not replace, but join the Jewish people in the matters of attaining salvation. There are still two different peoples, two different roles but one faith in one God.

'To the Jew first, then the Gentile'. The word 'first' is more appropriately translated 'especially'. It does not imply chronological order, but rather pressing the issue that Y'shua is the Jewish Messiah and the Jews especially should come to know the Messiah.

"There are still two different peoples, two different roles but one faith in one God."

That's exactly the point and the mindset of people. One is either of God or world, OT OR NT and really when we say there are two different people then it creates or at least allows for it.

This is just a belief or understanding, but soon there will be a revival across the land, but first the message goes to God's people and secondly the message goes to those not of God. It is the same in scripture, first to the Jew or God's people and then to the gentiles, those not of God.

Well here is how it works with the Jews and I being one of them I can speak with authority. In the past Christians in many cases have almost persecuted us because of the belief we crucified Jesus. That is not true, WE ALL crucified Jesus because He made attonment for our sin. For the longest time much of Christianity has pushed itself away from Jews. In other words, "THAT AIN'T RIGHT."

So if you want to reach Jews and you really are going to be open, the place to start is to listen and then walk with Jews so you can understand our perspective. Who knows you might learn something. Now we as Jews understand we all came from Adam and Eve and are all brothers and sisters. Why is it that Christians don't seem to get that/

These are just some of the examples of division that need to be cleared up before you will be able to get anywhere with Jews, but one thing will not imress them is for you to come on like you are right. For example: You said" What have Gentiles been grafted into? Faith of Abraham. This does not replace, but join the Jewish people in the matters of attaining salvation." I hate to say it but it was the gentiles that were brought into the hope or faith. Its not the other way around. Christians have said it is this way or nothing. Really thats not a great approach.

You want Jews to know the Messiah? Be nice so they will listen. They know HIm as a prpophet and teacher. Fact of what happened though is that the pharasees and saducees had control, one the land and the other the law. Which actully went along with Jonn the Bapists line of thougt.

It is in the love and unity that we will find the power of God to deal with all needs and problems.

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

I'm sorry, Sarah, but I must respectfully disagree with you, and so would the apostle Paul:

Rom. 11:25-27 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness has in part happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn ungodliness toward Jacob; For this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sin

The fullness of the Gentiles has still not been fulfilled, and won't be fulfilled until the rapture of the church. It has nothing to do with us "being nice" to them -- God's word says that God has blinded them to the truth.

Beloved Branch
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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

"The fullness of the Gentiles has still not been fulfilled, and won't be fulfilled until the rapture of the church. It has nothing to do with us "being nice" to them -- God's word says that God has blinded them to the truth."

Where do you get that from? The blindness is a result to particular Jews who thought that God was only for Jews. We (Jews) were supposed to reach everyone on earth with God's will, ways and love and because we (Jews) refused Jesus came that all could be grafted into the promise.

People even today are blinded because they do not want the truth. That applies to anyone, but Paul is trying to make it clear that God is for all people, but need to come through the gate which is Jesus. It is that way so there would be no division.

Now the I am not sure where you are finding scripture that says, "The fullness of the Gentiles has still not been fulfilled, and won't be fulfilled until the rapture of the church." I agree it is a belief but we are here right now to be perfected by love and in that love is the fullness of God found. Granted that is a belief as well but there is scripture somewhere (can't find it off hand) but we are here to be perfected.

How does that all happen? That happens through the five fold gift ministry so people can come to maturity to be all in all and no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Now that also means that people cannot come to maturity without the five fold gift ministry, "IF" scripture is accurate and we have to believe that it is accurate.

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?

The Bible clearly teaches that, because of Israel's disobedience and unbelief, GOD HIMSELF blinded their eyes:

Rom. 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: GOD HAS GIVEN THEM a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day

According to this passage, God has blinded their eyes. The other Romans passage indicates for how long...until the fullness of the Gentiles, which has not happened yet.

Beloved Branch
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Pink Cross Forums

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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Yes I fully agree that people are blinded and for many reasonts to, such as lust, money, greed. But I also see that point of the blinding is also to get people to turn to God. It's like Paul who turned that one guy over to Satan. It was not to hurt the person, but so the person would repent and go a different direction. Now the fullness of the gentiles is where I have a few questions, becaue in the five fold gift ministry is to bring people to maturity so they can be all in all, which is my understanding fullnes. I would like to state that the reason the Jews were blinded because they did not walk in the authority and fullness they could have. For example there was no need for Israel or the Jews to enter covenant with Rome and once they did they lost the power of God that He had given them.

What is a big deal is if the body of Christ having all power and authority and does not walk in it, then we are not much better than the Jews of the time. People in the body are being blinded by power, lust, money etc. It is happening all over the place and for the same reasons that the Jews 2000 years ago got in trouble. To me it is a clear warning to the church because the church is not above what happened.

It's sort of like when David sinned. He as very grieved at what he had done.In contrast when we sin today are we so grieved? Yes a lot of things are happening because of even certain teachigs that are out there. One being is that Jesus will fix it when He returns, not understaind that we have the power to fix it. It is doing exactly the same as Israel.

The good news is we can turn it around and I would even agree there is not much time to turn things around. If and only if there is a rapture, even though it is not scriptural, if there was a rapture it would be for those that are faithful to thier calling and purpose, which is also standing in the authory we do have as the body of Christ. I would think in not standing together in the evil that is takeing place, would be not standing in fait. Then we not only put ourselves at risk, but our children as well.

Do we love our children enough to end the nonsense? Do we love enough to work with the body to destroy the work of the enemy? Dp we even think about those things enough to seek God in how to do those things. Are we willing or is our church that we go to, are they willing to work with the five fold gift ministry?

I think it is realy something to look at and do something about.IT is for our own good and our childrens well being as well. The next generation will also have to stand together as one body and here is why, the body of Christ has been given all power and authority in heaven and in earth, but to make that work we have to work in love and unity or another word is agreement.There is great power in standing together and touching any thing, knowing that it will be done.

The mess happens simple because the chuch is not doing what it takes to end it. Many are working to help people, but most are not working to end the problem. It is commendable to work to help people and end the suffering of some, but it is better to end the problem so where individuals will not be victimized as they are now. Both men and wome need to learn at how to look at each other differently. Abuse happens when someone doesnt respect the other, and because they believe they have the righ to abuse women. What they don't understand is that a curse comes on a man when he abuses a woman. Men accoring to scripture are to care for women as we are weaker, but care for us enough to stand equal also, because if we are not equal then abuse will happen. If men do not understand that women came from men and when men abuse a women or even defiles a woman they do it to themselves.

It's like why do women end up as a hooker or the porn industry or even bad marriages? It is because we have not been taugh who we ae in Christ and what it all means. That was up the church then, now we as the church need to reach out and not only help those that end up in the sex industry in some way, but work to bring families so they understand what the truth is all about.

YES I agree, its not an easy job, but for those of us that God has blessed and even kept alive, it is important for us to help others not to take the path we did. What that is going to take is genuine love.

When a person reaches out for help, we the body of Christ needs to be there so the person can get real help. It can be done, but it is up to us to do it, otherwise likely it will not get done. We know things because we have been there. We have the experience.

People in churches have to learn who they are in Christ and that we all have been called to do something and if we did that something, life would be different here on earth.

It is the only real hope we have,

Sarah

God does have a plan for everyone and everyone is called to be a part of ministry somewhere. All jobs in ministry are important as it is designed by God to be a servant and save lives. God gave us so much, but how much do we give Him in return?