Give to Caesars vs Don't Murder

Paul talks about paying taxes in Romans 13:1-7:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

Does the fact that we now know that money is going overseas to fund abortions and we decide to pay our taxes that we are as guilty as the one performing the abortion? Well, history tells us that the Romans were doing some pretty disgusting things and still Paul wrote what he did concerning taxes. It's would be pretty hard to believe that someone as well educated and as well travelled as Paul was naive to the nasty things the Romans were doing. Tax money also goes to a lot of good things such as keeping up the roads we drive on, protecting our borders, many of the schools some of us attended, and other things we tend to take for granted. Are we to deny those things funding just because some government officials are using the authority God has given them to be stewards of our tax dollars to do such things?

I liked your response up til, 'tax money also goes to a lot of good things...' in comparison to the murder of countless human lives (5,000 a day in the U.S.).

As enjoyable are the roads, security, and schools are none of that is worth even one of the human lives destroyed in abortion.

As for your question; are we to deny those materialistic things because the government officials are using the same money to commit murder by the thousands? Yes.

The only difference between the holocaust and abortion is that you cannot see the blood being spilt. If our government decided like nazi germany did that all handicapped individuals are subhuman and therefore must be put to death a lot of people would stop paying taxes that funded the murdering.

But, like I said, you can't see the evil you are commiting and thereore you choose to play dumb.

We are obligated to pay taxes, as we would if we were living in Nazi Germany, btw, everytime you buy something you are paying taxes. This is also why I don't participate in boycotting companies just because Focus on the Family or some other christian organization tells us to. When I buy a product, that's all I'm doing, buying a product or a service. What they do w/that money is up to them, it is no longer mine. I'm neither funding abortions or gay rights, I simply purchased goods or services.

Maybe I picked the wrong things in trying to be general about the good things that tax money goes too. Let me restate it. Should we deny funding to things that feed, clothe, and shelter people in need, foreign or domestic, who are the victims of war, famine, or natural disaster?

You have basically said that since our government has decided to use tax payer money to fund abortions and we pay taxes knowing this then we are guilty of murder. You would also have to say this applies to any other sin we know about that the government using tax payer money for. So how do you explain what Paul said in Romans 13 when he said why we pay taxes and told us that we should pay them if we owe them? As I said before the Romans and other rulers during Paul's time could be pretty ruthless and were guilty of many horrible things including murder. Paul was too well travelled, too well educated, and too often the victim of the government to not know about those things. By saying we should pay taxes is Paul choosing to play dumb? Is he telling us to do something that would make us guilty of sin?

Well, America runs a little differently than the Empire of Rome.

I think that in a country where the government is of, for, and by the people that the citizens of that country are therefore responsible to make sure that they aren't in anyway sponsoring something like murder in the womb.

Certainly, there are certain politicians that will turn out to be wolves in sheep clothing and make policies that are clearly against Gods law. But once the citizens become aware of this it is their responsibility to put an end to the evil that is being done.

That is what is not being done.

Obviously, there are groups here and there that are advocating against abortion but they are not enough in respect to how many Christians are in the country. If half the churches were doing their job we would not be having a debate in our country on whether or not murdering in the womb is okay. It is the same spiritual laziness that took the Germans down the path they went through.

Companies need people to buy their products in order to make a profit. When a large portion of their customers stop buying their product (or boycotting) they lose money. That is what Christian organizations like Focus on the Family intend when they ask people to boycott certain companies.

I'm well aware of how boycotts work, or at least how they're supposed to work, I just don't participate in them.

The Bible says to respect the Government and its laws, we have to pay our taxes and leave the government leaders accountable to God on were the taxes go

My point is that a government whose leaders are direct representatives of the people and whos staying in occupation depend on the peoples approval gives a huge amount of responsibility on those people to correct any immoral policies that may come about. Such as abortion. The people, whom our government is based off of are not speaking out against abortion as they should and it makes them guilty of laziness at the least. The spiritual well being of that country that they may have 'a discerning heart to tell evil from good' depend on the 'light of the world' within that country. And I think we would all agree that there is a blanket of spiritual laziness in the U.S. that is keeping us from doing our patriotic duty of tending to the spiritual needs our country so desperately needs.

Are you giving to whom God tells you to give to? Are you being obedient in giving to God what is rightfully His, which is 10 percent of the increase of your finances, every time you get paid? Are you being faithful in whatever God has given to you? If your answer is "yes" to these questions, then you are keeping God's Word in your heart concerning your finances, and therefore, any taxes you pay that could go toward funding abortion are not yours to be concerned about. You, as a Christian, are in God's economy, and God DOES know who is using what amount of money to fund abortion and other atrocious things. You are held accountable for what YOU do for God in your finances, as well as in every other part of your life by God, and not by this world, because you are not of this world. As long as you are not being spiritually lazy in what you KNOW God has told you to do, but are being faithful to keep His Word, then you are not going to face the judgment this world will face.

If our country that we live in is subject to the people, what does that mean for the Christians?

I'm living in a country that aborts just as much people a day than died in 9/11.

And thats not including the people we abort in other countries.

If our country that we live in is subject to the people, what does that mean for the Christians?

This is what is so sad about our country... "We The People" don't exercise our rights. How many people in our country knew about the Constitution Party candidate, Chuck Baldwin, who was campaigning to totally STOP ALL GOVERNMENT ASSISTED abortions and he wanted to do away with tax on income like it was prior to 1913?

The mass media would not present his views to the American public because BOTH Democrat and Republican parties are pawns for a very sinister agenda. How many people know that during "Christian" President Bush's years in office, there were more than 4 million government assisted abortions in his first 4 year term? How many people know that any President, by Executive Order, can choose to do away with government assisted abortions? Abortions are big business. Body parts are sold all over the world. Bottom line is, America chooses not to do anything about murdering innocent lives because it is too profitable. America wanted to do away with Saddam Hussein because he was killing innocent lives but yet they DO NOTHING about the killing of innocent lives in our own country. Something is very wrong with this picture.

Porn sex contributes to the murdering of innocent lives. Some of those women in porn are being impregnated while husbands are sitting there oogling them and jacking off while their precious wives are in bed asleep. America is asleep at the wheel. No wonder she's in the shape she's in. What was life like before the government stepped in with the taxing of incomes beginning in 1913 and the camera? Pornography is big business. Abortions are big business. Government is big business. All have forgotten one thing- GOD.

God is thought of being uncaring and unloving, and this is because the devil, who is the god of this world, has convinced so many people that God really doesn't care about them. On top of that, kids are being taught, and have been taught, in public schools that they came from a monkey, thus eliminating their TRUE Creator in their minds. Make no mistake about this: The devil is after the minds of children, because he knows that all he has to do is implant one contrary, contradicting thought concerning God, and if that thought is not taken captive, then when that child grows up, they're going to become a VERY angry, passive adult that won't stand for anything, but will stuff their anger away, until they explode in a rage one day and kill other people. OK, maybe it won't happen to that extreme, but I can pretty much guarantee you that the reason why the two kids who went into their high school in Columbine, Colorado were most definitely VERY angry, and they were most likely listening to some wrong things that were demonically-inspired.

The bottom line is this -- Jesus Christ told us that we are to pay taxes, so we must do as He commanded. He didn't say Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's; unless, of course, they are practicing abominations or things that you don't agree with, in which case you don't have to pay. No, Jesus commanded us to pay our taxes. As Scott pointed out, so did the apostle Paul.

I agree with Scott in that the Romans did abominable things. I don't know everything they did, but I do know that for a long time, they killed Christians in some of the most brutal ways imaginable. The apostle Paul still commanded the Christians to pay taxes. I'm sure some those tax dollars were funding the murder of the early Christians, but even so, Christians were never commanded to stop paying taxes.

Also, if you think about it logically -- if we don't pay taxes, what say would we even have in how that money is spent? What right would we even have to protest? Do you really think that by refusing to pay taxes, we will stop govt.-funded abortions? If, say, we as Christians wanted to get together and protest govt. funded abortions, but refused to pay our taxes, who would listen to us, since it's no longer our money that's being spent? No one would take us seriously? They could very well say "well, you're not paying taxes, so why should your opinion matter?" We would have no influence whatsoever, and would be forfeiting our ability to instigate any kind of change, really. So, then, what is the point of refusing to pay taxes? Not only would we be breaking the law, and going against God's commandment, but we would be decreasing what little influence we already have on government policies.

So, then, it's a catch-22. We can continue to pay taxes, which fund legalized abortion, and protest those abortions, and try to instigate some sort of change, or we can refuse to pay taxes, and disqualify ourselves from instigating any sort of change whatsoever.

The Bible tells us straight-up how to deal with this sort of thing:

1 Tim. 2:1-4 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, this verse applies more to persecution -- praying for leaders so that we can live a quiet and peacable life, free from government persecution, so that we have more freedom to preach the gospel and all can come to the truth, but I think it applies in this situation, as well. We are to pay our taxes, abide by the laws of our land, and pray for our leaders, that our government would honor God. This verse tells us that we are to live quiet and peacably -- not to live in anarchy so that the government has more of a platform upon which to persecute us and instigate anti-Christian laws.

Refusing to pay taxes is just a bad idea altogether, IMO.

Beloved Branch
Moderator
Pink Cross Forums

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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

Hey, I havent checked back here in awhile. Yes, I agree that the thing to do would be to pray and protest. Not refuse to pay taxes.

Of course, if an individual refused to pay taxes then the gov. wouldn't care the reason. But, if all Christians refused to pay they might be willing to bargain with what our issues are.

Just because politicians sign a policy doesn't mean the execution of that policy is 'legal'. Don't automatically assume that it is. The constitution has been ignored many times, most recently with the legalizing of gay marriage without the consent of the people in state courts.

My position has changed to 'pray and protest' concerning our moral obligation to ending abortions caused by the U.S..

Do Christians have a right to flee a country because of its moral downfall?

All great points but...... one very important factor has been missed. Rome was under dictatorship and the people had no say in anything! America, on the other hand, is not under a dictatorship and the people do have a say in everything. What's interesting is there was no tax on income prior to 1913 when the IRS started. Until America is under dictatorship like Rome, I suppose there will always be people trying to put things back the way things were before 1913 because this form of government worked and they had wars to pay for too. I think it's a good thing that people are standing up for these issues and I think the President should sign an Executive Order stating that the US government will no longer assist in murdering innocent babies.

What's interesting is the reason there was no income tax prior to 1913 was because it was deemed 'unconstitutional' to take the peoples money away from them before they even were able to decide what to do with it.

We live in a fallen world, and our governmental structure is based on "independence", which is TOTALLY contrary and contradictory to knowing what intimacy is all about. Why is intimacy important? Let me ask you this question: Why is God's love important? The real reason why we have the problems we have in this world is because there is a SERIOUS lack of God's love, and His Believers are not moving in His love the way we should. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that us moving in the love of God is based on our performance, because if we say that, then we're basing our relationship with God on our performance of what He's commanded us to do, instead of basing it on His grace enabling us to do it. You may think that this has nothing to do with what this post is about, but you would be wrong, because God doesn't want us to live in a Babylonian system that is full of sin and death, which is what the structure and system of this age is about. Granted, the world we live in is full of sin, and it's a fallen system, but that doesn't mean that God wants us to live in that system, even though we do pay taxes to that system. There are ways that we can help those in need without the government being involved in it. We can choose to visit widows and orphans, and make ourselves present in their lives, which is EXACTLY what God commands us to do, and this has NOTHING to do with how much money we do or do not have, and how much taxes we do or do not pay. Let's get back to the basic grassroots of just HELPING those in need, without ANY thought of reward, because THAT is what we are commanded by God to do.

I agree, graphicalartist;

As earthly citizens, we are commanded to pay taxes, but as Heavenly citizens, we are commanded to reach out to others, and as you said, to help orphans and widows -- and basically anyone who needs God's love.

We all know that Satan runs this world -- but in the end, he will be defeated, and God will reign.

Beloved Branch
Moderator
Pink Cross Forums

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Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies

We do live in an imperfect world and honestly it sucks, but that is the way we live. We still need to fallow what the word says. Like I said beforegive to God what is gods and ceasars what is his. We do not have to agree with the government but we have to respect the people in that governemnt. The best way to fight it is by voting them in or out. the biggest problem now is government officals dont fear the people

We only need to concern ourselves with obeying God, and frankly, I really don't care if any government official fears me. If they don't fear the God that lives in me, that's a different story.