Pornography and God's Grace
I've had these thoughts brewing in my head for a few days now, and I've been intending to write them out. I wasn't sure where, but this might be the most appropriate place. I'm going to try posting it here first.
In recent years I have read teachings and books and watched videos by grace preachers (Joseph Prince, Darin Hufford, and others). I learned a lot of useful things, and I took on the message of grace while leaving the old ways of law behind me. I abandoned the thinking that God is requiring me to get better all the time, constantly raising the standard. I abandoned the thought that God has expectations for me, and this has helped me in many ways. Things used to be so bad for me, I'd feel guilty and condemned if I went a day without praying or if I felt my time in prayer the previous day just wasn't good enough. All of that is gone now.
The heart of the grace message, though, is that sin doesn't separate you from God and that God is going to be with you no matter what. I found this to be true and useful in all kinds of ways. I've been able to pray and commune with God after normal sexual fantasies and using softcore porn. However, after viewing hardcore pornography and having fantasies that are about as bad or worse, I find my heart numb and indifferent to God and anything having to do with him. There is no commonly committed sin that does so much damage to the sinner as to get off on the abuse and degradation of others. Then while in that state, you just end up wanting more. So what started out as giving in once, usually ends up being giving in multiple times in one day/night, and then the pattern just continues on the next few days or more.
It seems to be the inner spiritual working of God or others praying for me that gets me back on track. There have been mornings, even while using hardcore porn the night before, when I just wake up feeling renewed and not wanting anything to do with lust and porn.
I still haven't expressed all my thoughts and feelings on this matter. When I read grace messages, they talk about sin, but they never seem to acknowledge the reality of such damaging sins as using hardcore porn. They seem to promote a sort of shrug off sin mentality as if it were nothing, and that does work for most sin. However, I'm sorry, but I just can't shrug off the fact that I enjoyed watching unspeakable acts being done to some unfortunate girl, who was most likely sexually abused as a child. I can't just go about my life like that didn't happen. I can't just go to God in prayer like I didn't just do something horribly depraved. If I do go to God, all I could say is help me and save me from this. I can't pray for others or speak of other things. Now that really limits a relationship with God, now doesn't it? Even if you still believe God is with you, and you still belong to God after such episodes of madness (actually, I do), it leaves you in a state of utter ruin.
Comments
the interesting thing with sin is that while it doesn't change how God relates to us, it changes how we relate to God... Got that? think about it... adam and eve sin, they go hide. God comes looking for them, then they choose to step out of the bushes, at which time a confession takes place and relationship continues...
so when you sin you are entering into a period of time of hiding...
Where does guilt come from?
well in short it comes from the enemy, but in a way we are allowing a bit of the enemy into our body and connecting with that feeling of guilt and the enemy knows what we have done and condemns us. God doesn't condemn us, we do and the enemy does. Thats why we need to cling to Jesus for all we are worth, BUT if we are bust living in un-repentant sin, we are essentially hiding from him... and if we are hiding with chances are we are groving with the enemy of our souls
I agree with Faithfully loved. Awesome truth here.
There were 2 primary reasons why Adam and Eve hid from God -- shame and fear. If you really think about it, isn't that what sin instills in us?
Beloved Branch
Moderator/Admin
Pink Cross Forums
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies
"When you sin you are entering into a period of time of hiding..."
This line is extremely eye-opening. What a powerful post. You are really right, and that connection with the incident in the garden of Eden is a very clear example. You can't truly keep recovering while hiding at the same time.
Hey nastymachine...
This is a really thought provoking post...
As I read it, I had a number of things from my own reading and study flooding into my mind... and after I read your post, I didn't know where to begin. A cup of coffee seemed to be adequate, and I wish that we were all in a coffee shop over this one.
Before I dive to deep into my response to you, I was hoping you could better help me understand your background and experience with a few things by answering a couple questions for me...
Do you think there is a difference between God's grace for us... and God's love for us?
Is there, as Dietrich Boenhoffer pointed out, a 'cheap grace' and a 'costly grace'? (Cheap grace being one that is easily taken for granted... and costly grace being one that requires some sort of response from us).
Chadwick
Pink Cross Moderator
"Blessed are those who persevere under trial, because when they have stood the test, they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."
James 1:12
God's grace comes out of God's love. God is love, but God is not grace. In a similar way you could say God is light, and when his light shines, you see the truth.
LOVE ===> GRACE
LIGHT ===> TRUTH
Is there cheap and costly grace? Whether grace is perceived as cheap or costly is all in the head of the receiver, so I would say it's obvious people could value or fail to value grace. It's not something I really thought of before.
Did this help clear things up?
I know what you're saying here, but if you really think about it, there is no "cheap" grace because it was paid for with the precious blood of Christ. If not for His sacrifice on the cross, none of us could experience God's grace.
The statement that you made, that when God's light shines you see the truth, reminds me of the verses in 1 John:
1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
1 John 2:11 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. He who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
I highlighted the portions that I think apply to what you are saying here. When God's light shines you see the truth, but for someone who continually walks in darkness, as the apostle John says, it becomes so easy for them to stumble.....because they don't have the truth as a guide. They don't see things for what they really are.
You stated that looking at porn started to disgust you because of the "unspeakable acts done to these girls who were probably sexually abused anyhow." That is such a real-life demonstration of how walking in the light (the truth) makes it difficult to stumble, and made you uncomfortable watching porn. I think this relates a lot to John's statement that those who have the truth walk in light, and that there is no cause for stumbling in them. It make it a lot harder to stumble through watching pornography when you have such knowledge of the truth.
You hit on something so relevant when you said that the more you engaged in looking at porn, that you started becoming desensitized to it. I really think that's what sin does -- it desensitizes us to the truth. If you know a girl is being abused in a porn video, but you keep on watching anyhow, you become desensitized the the truth of what is going on....and it becomes easier to sin.
I know that sin will not separate you from the love of God, but it will separate you from fellowship with Him, if continued in, unrepented.
Beloved Branch
Moderator/Admin
Pink Cross Forums
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ps. 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly, for it is He who shall tread down our enemies
The reason I was interested in some clarity is because of a tendency that I have when it comes to God's grace and how it relates to my own sin.
Track with me a minute...
I can be a proud person. And as a proud person, I have this amazing ability to compare myself to other people. For example... in my recovery from porn, God had brought me pretty far down the road, but the urge to gratify the lust that still remained in my heart pulled me towards soft-porn.
"Well, at-least I'm not like those guys who still watch the hard stuff."
Some would call that 'justifying' my actions... it needs to be taken further than just that...
I call it pride... the mother of all sins. Pride gives birth to every other sin under the sun.
When I'm leaning on my pride of not being 'as bad as other people', I tend to approach God's grace with the same attitude, and turn it into something that is not grace at all... because it doesn't start with God's view of my sin at all, rather it is all based on my puffed up pride.
I would define grace this way:
"God the Father in love doing good for ill-deserving sinners through God the Son and the Spirit."
God is the giver of good gifts.
I'm the ill-deserving sinner of the gifts.
But it all starts with God... not my 'comparing myself to others so my sins don't look so bad' self...
When the Bible declares that God is love (1 John 4:16) and that God loves the world (John 3:16), it is declaring that, unlike the gods of other religions, the God of the Bible who made us and the rest of creation is entirely good. God's love is manifest to every human being - Christian and non-Christians alike.
In theological terms, this grace is called 'common grace', based on the idea that it is for everyone and therefore common to all human beings.
Positively, it reveals something of the goodness of God to all people; honors the image and likeness of God, which we bear by virtue of him creating us; improves the quality of life people experience; and precedes a grace that brings salvation.
Negatively, this common grace does not save people from the wrath of God and the conscious, eternal torments of hell. Common grace is only helpful in this life and of no benefit in the life to come unless it is accompanied by God's saving grace.
Basically, what I am saying is this: since everyone of us who has somehow been involved in the sin of pornography (soft or hard) deserves hell, anything that we receive in addition to hell is the grace of God.
Check out these scriptures sometime to better understand 'common grace':
Genesis 39:5
Psalm 33:5
Psalm 65:9
Psalm 104:14
Psalm 119:64
Psalm 145:9
Matthew 5:45
Luke 6:35
Acts 14:17
Acts 17:25
I say all of that to say this, nastymachine... from someone who has been puffed up in my own pride only viewing 'soft porn' and not the 'hard core' stuff:
God is good and loving... that will never change. But his 'common grace' in exchange for our sins is not something to be treated lightly.
There is an even greater grace called 'saving grace' that you really want to latch on to... it will bring healing and life to us that we could never get to on our own.
You are loved my friend...
Chadwick
Pink Cross Moderator
"Blessed are those who persevere under trial, because when they have stood the test, they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."
James 1:12
To me, the best book that answers the questions about God's grace and how to live out what God has called us to be -- holy-- is the book, "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee. While it is not a grace book per se, he truly explains the whole christian walk better than anyone I know. How to walk in obedience to God's commands....He just explained it so well.
The best way for me to understand God's grace is that He does in us what we cannot do ourselves. That it is thru Jesus. God still calls us to be holy, but we in the flesh cannot, no matter how hard we try. That is why we, our sinful nature/the flesh, must die. "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in my body, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:20).
Jesus did not do away with the law, but came to fulfill it...by dying on the Cross and going up to heaven, so we can receive the Holy Spirit to live in us, and enable us to fulfill the law. So Jesus fulfills the law by living in us.
You said Love ---- Grace... then the following verses apply:
"Rejoice in our tribulations, knowing that tribulations produces perseverance; perseverance, character; character, hope; and hope does not disappoint us because the LOVE of God has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." (Romans 5:3-5)
Hope this makes sense! :)
"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are Mine!...I am the Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;...You are precious and honored in my eyes, and I love you...do not be afraid, for I am with you." (Is.43:4-5)
Preciousnhiseyes: I have the book the Normal Christian Life and read most of it a few years ago. Actually, I was meeting with members of a group started by a "co-worker" of Nee called Witness Lee who ended up in America. People say Nee and Lee are different, and I do think they are. They are very similar, though.
faceless: That first paragraph is a quotable quote. There definitely seem to be a lot of situations in the Bible where you just can't mix things, and you've gotta take one or the other.
1. The tree of life or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
2. Going with spirit or with the flesh (Gal. 5).
3. Serving God and serving mammon.
Quietrhythms: There was an odd time in my life when I started exercising by riding an exercise bike every other day. For some reason that started to make me more confident, and I found that hardcore porn ended up becoming repulsive to me at the time. I was even working in a grocery store and an attractive girl was walking down an aisle looking down at the floor. I ended up staring at her intentionally trying to make her look at me, and when she did I smiled at her. I had never flirted with a stranger before, and I was totally confident about it.
I didn't think much about my name. I was just trying to make something different than what I use on other sites. It's just the name of a Marty Friedman song, but it sounds really porn related around here.